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World Football For other football that's not related to Depor. For example: the Primera División, Segunda División A, Segunda División B, the Champions League, EURO 2008, the World Cup 2010, Italy, England, Germany, Turkey etc.

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Old 01-07-2013, 22:02   #16
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I also think it's the guy who's up for it that takes it and sometimes confidence far exceeds talent!
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Old 01-07-2013, 22:28   #17
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As far as a I read Ramos asked to take the penalty and rest allowed it though there's a list of penalty takers mabe by Del Bosque

It's quite different to what happened in the penalty of Djukic
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Old 01-07-2013, 23:13   #18
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Well, if you ignore the list of penalty takers, you always run into trouble. Spain isn't some inexperienced team like Depor was when Djukic took that penalty, because Bebeto (at least I think it was Bebeto) was too afraid to take it.

They've got players like Iniesta, Xavi,... I can't see how players of that calibre would be too afraid to take a penalty while 3-0 down in a not-so-important cup. A team ALWAYS needs to have a hierarchy when it comes to penalties. If someone who is pretty low on that list asks to take it, just don't let him, it's as simple as that. Especially if that person is already prone to missing penalties. I really don't think they let Ramos take it because the rest was too afraid. I think Ramos just asked to take it, and his teammates thought, "ok, whatever", as they had already given up, like Rik said.

Torres is another great example of stunts like this. He always steps up to take penalties, but misses them most of the time. Even if his penalty didn't matter, why let him take it? Stuff like this always causes trouble, so imo, you have to be consistent here as a coach. And experienced players like Iniesta should know better as well.

And it's not just about Spain, I've just noticed this a lot these past two seasons, much more than before. I'm not saying Iniesta would've certainly scored it. But if someone like Iniesta steps up, at least you feel confident. The moment Torres/Ramos steps up to take that penalty, the one thought that crosses everyone's mind is "oh, crap". Except for Brazil fans of course, they were probably pretty happy about it.

It was the same at Depor. Yes, Riki loves Depor, and it was nice that he wanted to take responsibility. But the fact is that he's terrible in situations like this. Absolutely terrible. Especially in the Osasuna game it was clear that Oltra hadn't picked a penalty taker. They were looking at each other and Riki stepped up. This while we had Pizzi in our squad, and Bruno Gama, Juando. All of them much more likely to score it. Same thing against Levante. Pizzi had been appointed as our penalty taker at that point, but he was out suspended. And again, our players were looking at each other for someone to take it. I really blame Oltra for this.

And how many times have I been complaining here about so many Dutch people missing penalties? They have had such a long history with missing penalties, that it's quite simply a psychological effect by now. They simply get extra nervous when they have to take penalties. So why does every team that has 1 Dutch player in the squad, appoint him as penalty taker???

Anyway, apologies for the long post, but I just get genuinely frustrated watching every single team out there screwing up penalties, because they inexplicably always pick the worst penalty kick taker in the team. Another brilliant example of this is Witsel's penalty miss for Belgium against Turkey two years ago, which cost us the second place in our group and possibly even the qualification to the EC. Penalties are so important, and the last two years it's like everyone purposely sabotages them.

Anyway, the final yesterday had a very 'Bayern - Barca' vibe to it. Spain's style of football is similar to Barca, they of course share plenty of the same players, and watching them, you get the strong impression that they've run out of ideas and motivation.
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Old 02-07-2013, 00:23   #19
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Nice post, Greg, and I agree with most of it, although I'm not very sure that the nationality can make a player a good/bad penalty taker.

About Djukic penalty, our usual taker that season was Donato, but he had been subbed minutes before. Bebeto had failed a penalty that season (or previous) and lost the confidence. Djukic had also taken some penalties that season (or previous), but the usual taker was Donato. Many people considered that Bebeto should have taken that penalty, as he was the "star" of the team and should take the responsability, but the fact is that he wasn't the usual penalty taker, and I think Arsenio ordered from the bench to number 5 (Djukic) to take it.
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:04   #20
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Actually, I think in this case, nationality does make a difference. I'll draw a parallel with Anderlecht here. I forgot the exact number, but they missed 18 (!!) penalties this season. It's already insane that a team would get so many penalties in a single season, but well, that's Belgium for you. Last year they also missed a whole bunch. This whole penalty misery started when they lost the penalty shoot-out against BATE Borisov in the CL Play-off round a few years ago. No matter who tries to take the penalty, they miss. In fact, the second they get a penalty, you can literally see the entire team getting nervous. It's pretty hysterical.

The Netherlands have had a similar penalty trauma, and I think this is simply much more in the press here in Belgium and the Netherlands, than in any other part of Europe. On an international level, the Dutch are notorious for missing penalties. Whether you're watching on a Belgian channel or a Dutch channel, as soon as a Dutchman gets to take a penalty in a European game, the commentators will bring it up. These players realize it themselves.

Another parallel, but in a different situation, was the Riazor-curse for Real Madrid. That whole unbeaten run started off as a coincidence, with Real simply not being able to win in Riazor for a few years. After a while this thing almost starts to transcend reality. Real Madrid players started coming to the Riazor, having heard talks about the curse all week. It gets into their heads. It gives confidence to Depor players. And for so many years, Depor remained unbeaten.

I think if you lived in Belgium or the Netherlands, you'd realize how deep this penalty-thing goes with Dutch players. It doesn't mean they can't score penalties or anything, but it really does get into their heads. Which is why, in my opinion, it's not wise to let them take the penalties at this point. And honestly, they have proven me right many, many times. Much to my delight
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:37   #21
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What? 18 penalties failed in a season!!
But, how many penalties use to get Anderlecht then?! That's scandalous, even worst than here with Madrid or Barcelona...

Yes, it's true that the psychological factor is very important in this cases, I understand what you mean.

Anw, sth similar happened to the spaniards, who although having great clubs and players always failed in the NT competitions, until 2008. They had the curse of quarter finals for many years. And also with the penalties. Do you remember Mexico 86 quarter finals? Belgium, with a fantastic Van Breukelen, eliminated Spain after penalty kicks.

Edit: Ok, You probably don't remember Mexico 86 because you weren't born yet, but probaly know the result anw.

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Old 02-07-2013, 01:49   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Nation
What? 18 penalties failed in a season!!
But, how many penalties use to get Anderlecht then?! That's scandalous, even worst than here with Madrid or Barcelona...

Yes, it's true that the psychological factor is very important in this cases, I understand what you mean.

Anw, sth similar happened to the spaniards, who although having great clubs and players always failed in the NT competitions, until 2008. They had the curse of quarter finals for many years. And also with the penalties. Do you remember Mexico 86 quarter finals? Belgium, with a fantastic Van Breukelen, eliminated Spain after penalty kicks.

Edit: Ok, You probably don't remember Mexico 86 because you weren't born yet, but probaly know the result anw.
Nope, don't remember that, but of course they still show that a lot on tv here. I do know the goal keeper was Jean-Marie Pfaff and not Van Breukelen, as the latter is actually Dutch and not Belgian

And Anderlecht got 25 penalties in the entire season. So at least they did score a few of them

The worst part is that they're still complaining they should've gotten more penalties, and in the seldom event that their opponent gets a penalty, they say it's unfair. Even if it was a penalty as clear as day. I have to refrain myself from listening to their post-game interviews, cause it makes me wanna pull my hair out
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:59   #23
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Jean Marie Pfaff, of course.

This kind of memory fails happen when you are getting old, you know.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:52   #24
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It is hard to understand for me Greg, why you would force Iniesta to kick the penalty. Have you ever seen him taking a penalty, free-kick or a corner? I question-mark his character/mentality fits to a penalty-taker at all, while I rate Ramos' shooting capabilty/technique over the one of Andres. Iniesta is a passer and not a shooter.

Pizzi has a good shooting technique, but we have all seen his awful corners. But against Rayo Riki fought out a penalty, and Pizzi was the one to score. I have doubts about JuanDo's leader and responsibility-taker mentality, while Bruno would be as doubtful as Riki, or even more.

If I remember well, beside 1986, Spain went out on penalties in 1996, and 2002, while Raul missed a last minute penalty in 2000, plus Barca lost an European Cup final against Steaua, while the Bats a CL final against Bayern on penalties.

But if penalties, England has the worst record I suppose.


Have you heard that Cruyff says, that avoiding the penalty-lottery, football should use a new rule (similar to NHL), so both team would start the overtime with only 10 players (to have more field per each), and in every 5 or 10 minutes a player should go out from both teams? more open spaces, more possibility of goals, he says.
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:33   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DepHun
Have you heard that Cruyff says, that avoiding the penalty-lottery, football should use a new rule (similar to NHL), so both team would start the overtime with only 10 players (to have more field per each), and in every 5 or 10 minutes a player should go out from both teams? more open spaces, more possibility of goals, he says.

Guess what, he probably hasn't thought of the shootout / penalty kicks following the overtime in case of a tie
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:16   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DepHun
It is hard to understand for me Greg, why you would force Iniesta to kick the penalty. Have you ever seen him taking a penalty, free-kick or a corner? I question-mark his character/mentality fits to a penalty-taker at all, while I rate Ramos' shooting capabilty/technique over the one of Andres. Iniesta is a passer and not a shooter.

Pizzi has a good shooting technique, but we have all seen his awful corners. But against Rayo Riki fought out a penalty, and Pizzi was the one to score. I have doubts about JuanDo's leader and responsibility-taker mentality, while Bruno would be as doubtful as Riki, or even more.

If I remember well, beside 1986, Spain went out on penalties in 1996, and 2002, while Raul missed a last minute penalty in 2000, plus Barca lost an European Cup final against Steaua, while the Bats a CL final against Bayern on penalties.

But if penalties, England has the worst record I suppose.


Have you heard that Cruyff says, that avoiding the penalty-lottery, football should use a new rule (similar to NHL), so both team would start the overtime with only 10 players (to have more field per each), and in every 5 or 10 minutes a player should go out from both teams? more open spaces, more possibility of goals, he says.
A few days ago he scored a pretty good penalty against Italy. And I'm not saying it should be Iniesta per se, but there are plenty of other players in their squad who take better penalties than Ramos, who rarely even gets them on target. And what you're saying about Juando and Bruno doesn't make sense either, as you haven't seen them take a penalty.

I think you're missing the point here. What I'm saying is that a team needs to have clear agreements on taking a penalty. Just because someone really wants to take it, isn't a reason for him to take it. Usually it's these penalties that go to hell, and then it results in a fight among the players. As soon as a penalty is whistled, there should be one player who knows he's going to take it, so he can be focused on it.

Pizzi never missed a penalty this season, when he was appointed, beforehand, as our penalty kick taker. At Waregem, Thorgan Hazard never missed a penalty when he was appointed as the main penalty kick taker. Every time they were unclear as to who was going to take it, Riki and Leye stepped up, and they missed them. Riki on 2 occasions, Leye on 3. Some coaches just really need to think these things through, instead of hoping it'll just be alright.

Have you ever actually taken a penalty yourself? It has nothing at all to do with shooting technique or capabilities. It's all about keeping a cool head. You say Ramos has good shooting technique, but did you actually see him take that penalty? Instead of making a calm run-up to the ball, he jumps forward like a madman, then raises his leg way too high, and the shot ends up wide because he had too little control over the shot. I don't see the good technique in that.

Take a look at how Eden Hazard usually takes his penalties. He makes a slow run up to the ball, keeps watching the goal keeper, watches his movements, and then just slides the ball into the opposite corner of where the keeper is going. No wild shots, just simply calmly sliding the ball into the net. Then you have players like Riki and Ramos who think that a great penalty is when you kick it really hard into the corner without even paying attention to the keeper. And on top of that, for keepers it's easier to predict in what corner of the goal they're going to shoot it. The reasoning behind that is understandable, cause if you kick it hard enough into a corner, the keeper will never be able to reach it. The problem is that this is much harder than it looks. Which type of penalties do you think are scored more often? The really hard shots, or the calm and precise shots?
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Old 02-07-2013, 13:52   #27
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First of all I have to defend here our allie from the Biris Norte:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Elx7HsA5M
I don't consider Ramos as a technical shooter as he can shoot hard, but for the fact that he has a wide repertoar (with right foot). (I am from a country, where 60 years ago players who shot the post from 16 meters only 9 times from 10 was sent out of the NT. Also by us, who shoots above regularly, is not a footballer, as he can't keep his body and foot as needed. I used to call the bomber-goals from 30 méters as accidents, and used to mention that the player could never in his life repeat it.)

Good penalty-shooting technique for me includes the capacity to be able to send the goalie to the wrong side and then shooting the ball to the other. I also mentioned that cool-head mentality or character, as something very much important. I do think that the reason why Iniesta, JuanDo and Bruno never shoots a penalty is because their coaches think they miss that character.

For me the best penalties are strong, low (on the grass) shots to the corner. Like Brehme in 1990 WC final. But I like the risky idiots, who lift-it-up to the top corner. What I hate beside the new go-stop-go-stop-go-stop-shot penalties are those South-Americans, who walk there from 3 steps and curve it on middle-height for the hands of the keeper. Also I consider most of the left footed players shoot the ball to the left hand of the keeper. If I were a keeper, and Ayozé/Evaldo would take a penalty against me, I would jump to the left for sure. Other thing is that quite often it is the biggest star who misses the penalty (Baggio, Trez, Ronaldo for MUFC, Terry for Chelsea, etc)

I think the clear agreement on taking the penalty at Depor was, it is for Pizzi or Riki, while at Furia Roja it is for Villa/Torres if they are interested in it. If not, then anyone who is around.

I am like Djukic/Ramos, if no-one is appointed before, and no-one else takes it, I would go there and try to do my best. If I miss it, the others can go the hell...

Riazor! what do you mean? Cruyff wants to replace the penalty shoot-out somehow as far as I can understand.
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Old 02-07-2013, 14:15   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DepHun

Riazor! what do you mean? Cruyff wants to replace the penalty shoot-out somehow as far as I can understand.

Yeah, I understood. So he'd want to introduce overtime (like in NHL). But what if the game is still tied after overtime? It would still be a penalty shootout?
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Old 02-07-2013, 14:24   #29
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I think, he would let it until it is 2 goalis on the pitch.

Just to add, my team ETO missed 6 penalties during the season...
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Old 02-07-2013, 14:36   #30
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I still don't get it Dephun. So to you good penalty kick takers are the ones who miss 80% of the times?

You keep talking about Riki and Ramos, but these two are generally awful at penalties. You said it's important to send the keeper to the wrong side, but neither of them has that ability. They don't look at the keeper, and the direction they shoot in has been decided beforehand. And both of them are quite the opposite of a cool-headed mentality. So why should Riki be our penalty kick taker if he lacks both these skills?

How about the penalty that Iniesta took against Italy? The keeper went to the right side but it was kicked hard and low into the corner, unreachable. Pretty good penalty in my book.

If you were to ask me who'd be the worst option at Depor to take the penalties, I'd have said Riki. And the fact that he missed both penalties he took, pretty much proves it. I watched the first penalty of Riki again, and there were really no agreements on it. He just wanted to take it and he did. Oltra hadn't appointed a set penalty kick taker yet after Guardado left, and that is what bugs me. After that, it's true he appointed Pizzi. But the second Pizzi wasn't on the field and we got another penalty, same problem. I honestly think Oltra is the worst coach we've had in the past decade, worse than Caparros and Lotina. But that's just my opinion of course. How we managed to get so many points without a minimal amount of organisation is practically a miracle, and was completely down to the fact that we had by far the best squad in Segunda.

Here's a Bruno Gama penalty by the way, the only one I could find. He sends the keeper in the wrong direction and scores

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_tt1XLi2Qc

Edit: Disregard the part where I said you wanted Riki to take the penalties at Depor, I misread what you said

Anyway, all I'm saying is that I've seen it time and time again, that at clubs where there aren't any clear agreements about who takes the penalty, the succes ratio for these penalties is a lot lower. At Anderlecht for example, every time they get a penalty, someone else is taking it. And all of them are missing.
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